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	<title>Comments on: Label &#8211; the secret element</title>
	<atom:link href="http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/</link>
	<description>Web development and Internet trends</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:20:43 +0100</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-472303</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-472303</guid>
		<description>adrien,

To simplify: not all web browsers and platforms support form styling, or to a lesser extent, so it usually not a good path to take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adrien,</p>
<p>To simplify: not all web browsers and platforms support form styling, or to a lesser extent, so it usually not a good path to take.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: adrien</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-471702</link>
		<dc:creator>adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 06:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-471702</guid>
		<description>hey i have a question for you  .. i&#039;ve been working on styling a form &amp; labels with CSS&lt; but traditional style rrules don&#039;t really seem to apply to forms, at least for me when i try changing  up the color, and add a background collor for example, it shows up in the design view of dreamweaver, but when i export to browser it just reverts .. what am i missing?  i appreciate any feedback i can get, preferably at my email address info@freestylemovement.com  

thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey i have a question for you  .. i&#8217;ve been working on styling a form &amp; labels with CSS&lt; but traditional style rrules don&#8217;t really seem to apply to forms, at least for me when i try changing  up the color, and add a background collor for example, it shows up in the design view of dreamweaver, but when i export to browser it just reverts .. what am i missing?  i appreciate any feedback i can get, preferably at my email address <a href="mailto:info@freestylemovement.com">info@freestylemovement.com</a>  </p>
<p>thank you!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Using labels in a nice semantic fashion - Robert&#8217;s talk</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-109341</link>
		<dc:creator>Using labels in a nice semantic fashion - Robert&#8217;s talk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-109341</guid>
		<description>[...] this is something new to you, I&#8217;d recommend that you first read Label - the secret element. What I wanted to touch on here is the semantic value on how you use the label element together [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this is something new to you, I&#8217;d recommend that you first read Label &#8211; the secret element. What I wanted to touch on here is the semantic value on how you use the label element together [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-3229</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-3229</guid>
		<description>Karen,

Interesting to hear. Labels and wrapping doesn&#039;t seem to be a sure approach in IE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen,</p>
<p>Interesting to hear. Labels and wrapping doesn&#8217;t seem to be a sure approach in IE.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-3218</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2006 01:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-3218</guid>
		<description>I tried the suggestion of wrapping the entire input with &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; and using &lt;strong&gt;for&lt;/strong&gt;, but  the code did not produce an entire clickable label for IE.  

However, I should point out I&#039;m using &lt;strong&gt;img&lt;/strong&gt;, not text for the label.  When I replace &lt;strong&gt;image&lt;/strong&gt; with plain text, the entire label is clickable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried the suggestion of wrapping the entire input with <strong>label</strong> and using <strong>for</strong>, but  the code did not produce an entire clickable label for IE.  </p>
<p>However, I should point out I&#8217;m using <strong>img</strong>, not text for the label.  When I replace <strong>image</strong> with plain text, the entire label is clickable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2101</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2101</guid>
		<description>Roger,

Well, I guess that anything that can be clickable in a web page (except for buttons) usually have got a pointer cursor, so that&#039;s what people have gotten used too; therefore I think it&#039;s ok to use it.

However, if it&#039;s the correct thing to do or not, I&#039;m not sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger,</p>
<p>Well, I guess that anything that can be clickable in a web page (except for buttons) usually have got a pointer cursor, so that&#8217;s what people have gotten used too; therefore I think it&#8217;s ok to use it.</p>
<p>However, if it&#8217;s the correct thing to do or not, I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Roger Johansson</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2096</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Johansson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2096</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so sure about changing the cursor to a pointer when it&#039;s above a label. That doesn&#039;t happen in desktop applications (at least not in Mac OS X or Windows), so why should it be that way in web forms?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so sure about changing the cursor to a pointer when it&#8217;s above a label. That doesn&#8217;t happen in desktop applications (at least not in Mac OS X or Windows), so why should it be that way in web forms?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2043</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2043</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2023&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Trovster&lt;/a&gt;: Regarding &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt;, the &lt;strong&gt;for&lt;/strong&gt; attribute and IE, you are correct, my memory slipped up but in my books, I have it correct.

As much as I appreciate the ease with which to create code or edit content in &lt;abbr title=&quot;Dreamweaver&quot;&gt;DW&lt;/abbr&gt;, I am a coder from the beginning and I don&#039;t believe that a student Web designer/developer can become a good one without learning and working with the code and for that reason, I don&#039;t shy away from code in my books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2023" rel="nofollow">Trovster</a>: Regarding <strong>label</strong>, the <strong>for</strong> attribute and IE, you are correct, my memory slipped up but in my books, I have it correct.</p>
<p>As much as I appreciate the ease with which to create code or edit content in <abbr title="Dreamweaver">DW</abbr>, I am a coder from the beginning and I don&#8217;t believe that a student Web designer/developer can become a good one without learning and working with the code and for that reason, I don&#8217;t shy away from code in my books.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2026</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2026</guid>
		<description>trovster,

Thanks, I wasn&#039;t aware of that in WCAG 2.0. I generally agree with you, but I just think people use the wrapping approach when it comes to very large forms with a lot elements, and they think it&#039;s a hassle to create a lot of dynamic IDs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>trovster,</p>
<p>Thanks, I wasn&#8217;t aware of that in WCAG 2.0. I generally agree with you, but I just think people use the wrapping approach when it comes to very large forms with a lot elements, and they think it&#8217;s a hassle to create a lot of dynamic IDs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: trovster</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2023</link>
		<dc:creator>trovster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2023</guid>
		<description>Jules: IE supports &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; element as clickable if the for attribute is supplied, regardless of whether it&#039;s wrapped around an input.

Commendable that you&#039;re teaching them code view, it&#039;s more than most places!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jules: IE supports <strong>label</strong> element as clickable if the for attribute is supplied, regardless of whether it&#8217;s wrapped around an input.</p>
<p>Commendable that you&#8217;re teaching them code view, it&#8217;s more than most places!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: trovster</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2022</link>
		<dc:creator>trovster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2022</guid>
		<description>In the WCAG 2.0 working draft it mentions that you should define labels EXPLICITLY, and the implicit (wrapping the input within the label) has be deprecated.

I would always suggest to do so too. There is no reason to use them to wrap the input.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the WCAG 2.0 working draft it mentions that you should define labels EXPLICITLY, and the implicit (wrapping the input within the label) has be deprecated.</p>
<p>I would always suggest to do so too. There is no reason to use them to wrap the input.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2017</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2017</guid>
		<description>Jules,

Sounds good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jules,</p>
<p>Sounds good!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2010</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2010</guid>
		<description>Regarding Dreamweaver, it is quite easy, if you are comfortable with the Code view, to insert the for attribute of the &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; tag: the Code view supports the for attribute but the dialog box only provides one or the other option.

I teach my readers to use the Code view and I do mention that IE doesn&#039;t support just the &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; tag as a clickable label unless the &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; wraps the &lt;strong&gt;input&lt;/strong&gt; and the for attribute is used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Dreamweaver, it is quite easy, if you are comfortable with the Code view, to insert the for attribute of the <strong>label</strong> tag: the Code view supports the for attribute but the dialog box only provides one or the other option.</p>
<p>I teach my readers to use the Code view and I do mention that IE doesn&#8217;t support just the <strong>label</strong> tag as a clickable label unless the <strong>label</strong> wraps the <strong>input</strong> and the for attribute is used.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2009</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2009</guid>
		<description>Rowan, Sacha,

Yes, I also tend to do that with a pointer cursor. However, is it the correct approach?

Sacha,

Yes, the second option is valid.

Jules,

It&#039;s ok! :-)
Unfortunate to hear that it is like that in Dreamweaver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rowan, Sacha,</p>
<p>Yes, I also tend to do that with a pointer cursor. However, is it the correct approach?</p>
<p>Sacha,</p>
<p>Yes, the second option is valid.</p>
<p>Jules,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ok! <img src='http://robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Unfortunate to hear that it is like that in Dreamweaver.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2008</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2008</guid>
		<description>Sorry again, should be &lt;em&gt;Wrap &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt; tag around form input&lt;/em&gt;.

Sorry Robert for messing up your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry again, should be <em>Wrap <strong>label</strong> tag around form input</em>.</p>
<p>Sorry Robert for messing up your comments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2007</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2007</guid>
		<description>Darn, got bit by the remove-HTML-from-the-comment parser again.

This highlights one of the weaknesses I have found in Dreamweaver 8: although, by default, the Input Tag Accessibility Dialog box pops up each time you insert an &lt;strong&gt;input&lt;/strong&gt; tag and it provides you options for the &lt;strong&gt;label&lt;/strong&gt;tag, unfortunately, the options are only &lt;em&gt;Wrap tag around form input&lt;/em&gt; (may not be an exact quote of the text) and &lt;em&gt;Use the for attribute&lt;/em&gt;. It is unfortunate that both options may not be selected at the same time but I have submitted this item as an enhancement request to MacrAdobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darn, got bit by the remove-HTML-from-the-comment parser again.</p>
<p>This highlights one of the weaknesses I have found in Dreamweaver 8: although, by default, the Input Tag Accessibility Dialog box pops up each time you insert an <strong>input</strong> tag and it provides you options for the <strong>label</strong>tag, unfortunately, the options are only <em>Wrap tag around form input</em> (may not be an exact quote of the text) and <em>Use the for attribute</em>. It is unfortunate that both options may not be selected at the same time but I have submitted this item as an enhancement request to MacrAdobia.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2006</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2006</guid>
		<description>This highlights one of the weaknesses I have found in Dreamweaver 8: although, by default, the Input Tag Accessibility Dialog box pops up each time you insert an  tag and it provides you options for the  tag, unfortunately, the options are only Wrap  tag around form input (may not be an exact quote of the text) and Use the for attribute. It is unfortunate that both options may not be selected at the same time but I have submitted this item as an enhancement request to MacrAdobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This highlights one of the weaknesses I have found in Dreamweaver 8: although, by default, the Input Tag Accessibility Dialog box pops up each time you insert an  tag and it provides you options for the  tag, unfortunately, the options are only Wrap  tag around form input (may not be an exact quote of the text) and Use the for attribute. It is unfortunate that both options may not be selected at the same time but I have submitted this item as an enhancement request to MacrAdobia.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Krug</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2005</link>
		<dc:creator>Krug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2005</guid>
		<description>So do I. It&#039;s just much easier for users to realize that something is clickable, as most web sites still don&#039;t use the label tag. (Maybe there should be a third kind of pointer, something in between a link hand and the &quot;normal&quot; arrow.)

Robert: Is the section option valid? If yes, I&#039;m exclusively going to use it. Just to make IE users angry. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So do I. It&#8217;s just much easier for users to realize that something is clickable, as most web sites still don&#8217;t use the label tag. (Maybe there should be a third kind of pointer, something in between a link hand and the &#8220;normal&#8221; arrow.)</p>
<p>Robert: Is the section option valid? If yes, I&#8217;m exclusively going to use it. Just to make IE users angry. <img src='http://robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rowan Lewis</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2004</link>
		<dc:creator>Rowan Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2004</guid>
		<description>I try and give all interactive elements other than text inputs the pointer cursor, it makes things just that clearer to the user. However, that&#039;s still no excuse to use a visual guide of some sort to help the user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try and give all interactive elements other than text inputs the pointer cursor, it makes things just that clearer to the user. However, that&#8217;s still no excuse to use a visual guide of some sort to help the user.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://robertnyman.com/2005/12/09/label-the-secret-element/#comment-2003</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=269#comment-2003</guid>
		<description>Pid,

Ah, thank you. Fixed.

I think it isn&#039;t the default style because it isn&#039;t a link, i.e. it doesn&#039;t lead anywhere. Then again, one can argue if people understand if something&#039;s clickable if the cursor is only an arrow...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pid,</p>
<p>Ah, thank you. Fixed.</p>
<p>I think it isn&#8217;t the default style because it isn&#8217;t a link, i.e. it doesn&#8217;t lead anywhere. Then again, one can argue if people understand if something&#8217;s clickable if the cursor is only an arrow&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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