I feel your pain…

- The framework putting noscript tags in twice for each externally-called js file (and putting them in the head of the document).
- That damn form tag.
- The time to iron out these problems.

Still at least the apps were written as web services and output XML ready for some XSLT-lovin’.

If you have a strict XML/XSLT structure in .NET, it is very easy to make it more accessible and avoid the common pitfalls of .NET. But at the same time, it should really be told that it is by no means necessary to go down that road to deliver an accessible web site with .NET.

Steve,

Naturally it depends on what scenario we’re talking about here, but if the server-side is adapted from get go to take this into consideration, it shouldn’t affect project time. For a very simple example, you can take a look at ASK and its example PHP and ASP files.

Stephen,

That sounds great, although I’m not sure everyone either cares as much as you or have the time/money to do it that way. Still, you have my respect.

I write in .Net C# (a wonderful language) and I don’t use VS, I use UltraEdit and I don’t implement server-side controls, I write my own markup and functions.

This, I find, give me greater exact control over the output of the code. Sure it might take a few minues to write a function that handles select boxes correctly, but in the end there is pure valid accessible code.

Once the server-side code has been produced, I can then add JS over the top

GK

I don’t understand how it doesn’t take any longer to provide server-side *and* javascript enhanced interface designs?

When I provide progressive enhancement to forms or features it takes longer for sure. I have to replicate the server-side functionality using javascript, which takes a significant amount of time.

But I totally agree and in my experience, you can hand a project manager/dev team a working tech demo of (imo) accessible HTML, CSS and framework design, and they STILL return a table based, image-ridden, inaccessible mess as the final site… It has a lot to do with the desire to achieve

I know you don’t like that and we’ve discussed it before. But how many environments, for instance, offer something like Autopostback as an attribute to add to your elements to immediately make it JavaScript dependant?

Naturally it’s up to the web developer in the end, just as I state in the post. But I think my main opinion about it still stands: .NET and Visual Studio (as correctly pointed out in the comments above) per default just lures you onto the path of JavaScript dependency, a form around everything in the page and so on.

I’ve worked with a lot of different .NET web developers, and I can count on one hand the number that knew of/cared about making it accessible , instead of following the wide path .NET offers you. Just as late as yesterday I got a question from one of them why one would want JavaScript code, and JavaScript events applied, from an external file…

But it’s not necessarily all their fault either, it’s about the mindset Microsoft used from day one when they developed it. But it is getting better, so there’s hope at least.

Oh, yeah, XSLT rocks, by the way.

Harmen,

Thanks!

Robin,

Good point, and good work.

I have always liked XSLT … worked with it a lot in the past, it’s a great way to do some good presentation layer stuff.

At my company be use .NET but we use it in the right way: purely for logic. Page builds are handled through XSLT.

Funny you mention the ASP thing, just an hour ago I was talking with a server-side developer who worked out a pretty ingenious Content Management System (who wanted me to assist him in client-side development), and it contained nearly everything you talk about:
- Javascript dependencies,
- Everything’s contained in a form-element

I love projects where I’m both responsible for the client- and the server-side. When everything’s in my hands, I can do everything in my power to deliver an accessible website.

Good article, Robert

It is solely up to the developer if he/she wants to follow the current standards.

I like the way .NET makes things easy for new developers to start out with dragging objects onto pages and see how they work. Granted, they spit out horrible code (especially VS 2003, VS 2005 does a much better job). But not everyone is an expert, and it’s a great way of getting started.

So … enough with the .NET bashing