Comments on: Frameworks are the new black http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/ Web development and Internet trends Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:38:52 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Robert Nyman http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-126610 Robert Nyman Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:11:59 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-126610 Jakob, I agree. And naturally it's very important to research frameworks to see where you can gain from them. Just as long as you're not blinded by the bright light... :-) Jakob,

I agree. And naturally it’s very important to research frameworks to see where you can gain from them. Just as long as you’re not blinded by the bright light… :-)

]]> By: Jakob Heuser http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-126497 Jakob Heuser Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:35:19 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-126497 I see in frameworks a trend much akin to every other fad engineers face. We all see something that makes our lives easier, then we love it / embrace it / take it on nice dinners. After that, we start trying to use it where we shouldn't because we're so familiar with it. As frameworks are tools for us to engineer, those who engineer should be looking at frameworks. The same can be said about the evaluation of any open source technology for use by engineers. However, as you said, it's when the non-engineers start deciding that things get messy. I see in frameworks a trend much akin to every other fad engineers face. We all see something that makes our lives easier, then we love it / embrace it / take it on nice dinners. After that, we start trying to use it where we shouldn’t because we’re so familiar with it.

As frameworks are tools for us to engineer, those who engineer should be looking at frameworks. The same can be said about the evaluation of any open source technology for use by engineers. However, as you said, it’s when the non-engineers start deciding that things get messy.

]]> By: Robert Nyman http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124891 Robert Nyman Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:45:38 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124891 I definitely understand about developers being lazy, focusing on target goals etc. And yes, there are frameworks that are somewhat usable. But what I object is, as mentioned above, the wrong people choosing if and what framework should be used, and, more importantly, <em>what</em> framework should be used. I don't have a problem with frameworks, I have a problem with the fixation to use them all the time, and with the selection process where no quality criteria whatsoever seem to exist. I definitely understand about developers being lazy, focusing on target goals etc. And yes, there are frameworks that are somewhat usable. But what I object is, as mentioned above, the wrong people choosing if and what framework should be used, and, more importantly, what framework should be used.

I don’t have a problem with frameworks, I have a problem with the fixation to use them all the time, and with the selection process where no quality criteria whatsoever seem to exist.

]]> By: Jermayn Parker http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124793 Jermayn Parker Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:20:51 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124793 Steven has a good point but I do not think its the designers fault but rather the person who demands the work to be done in such a small period of time. At my part time job, I can either get it done properly and take longer to do it and get in trouble or do a quick slap job and as long as it kinder works, its what they want. Steven has a good point but I do not think its the designers fault but rather the person who demands the work to be done in such a small period of time.

At my part time job, I can either get it done properly and take longer to do it and get in trouble or do a quick slap job and as long as it kinder works, its what they want.

]]> By: Marco http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124234 Marco Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:56:44 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-124234 I fully agree Robert. The whole framework-zealotism is extremely annoying. And as you say, there's still lots of coding to do, no matter how slick the screencasts look. This reminds me of the brilliant <a href="http://www2.sqlonrails.org/screencast" rel="nofollow">SQL on Rails</a> screencast which takes a good piss at this whole phenomena. And when it comes to the whole marketing thing: Nothing will ever change as long as people who don't know shit about technology are making the calls in large corporations. This is in my opinion the root of most IT related problems. The suits make the calls, the technicians get to wade through the mess those decisions resulted in. Power to the companies that actually listen to their developers I say. Furthermore I strongly disagree with Olle. Nothing is ever going to eliminate the need of an expert. And also, I think a skilled developer like Robert will never have to worry about 'not being needed anymore'. Even though some frameworks may appear to 'do everything out of the box' one may wonder HOW they do it. How many lines of codes are executed under the hood when you run this really 'nifty' 5 lines of JQuery thingy you just wrote? And how well does that work on a slow box? As for 'frameworks': I quite like the core modules of YUI (not the widgets really but mostly the YAHOO.util.* stuff). They merely assist a developer with stuff rather than trying to take control of everything. Kind of like your own DOMAssist (which looks very nice!). I fully agree Robert. The whole framework-zealotism is extremely annoying. And as you say, there’s still lots of coding to do, no matter how slick the screencasts look. This reminds me of the brilliant SQL on Rails screencast which takes a good piss at this whole phenomena.

And when it comes to the whole marketing thing: Nothing will ever change as long as people who don’t know shit about technology are making the calls in large corporations. This is in my opinion the root of most IT related problems. The suits make the calls, the technicians get to wade through the mess those decisions resulted in. Power to the companies that actually listen to their developers I say.

Furthermore I strongly disagree with Olle. Nothing is ever going to eliminate the need of an expert. And also, I think a skilled developer like Robert will never have to worry about ‘not being needed anymore’. Even though some frameworks may appear to ‘do everything out of the box’ one may wonder HOW they do it. How many lines of codes are executed under the hood when you run this really ‘nifty’ 5 lines of JQuery thingy you just wrote? And how well does that work on a slow box?

As for ‘frameworks’: I quite like the core modules of YUI (not the widgets really but mostly the YAHOO.util.* stuff). They merely assist a developer with stuff rather than trying to take control of everything. Kind of like your own DOMAssist (which looks very nice!).

]]> By: Johan http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123940 Johan Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:06:02 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123940 Are the Eastern Island heads connected to Ayers Rock? Are the Eastern Island heads connected to Ayers Rock?

]]> By: Steven Clark http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123785 Steven Clark Sat, 20 Oct 2007 04:52:09 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123785 I think a lot of this comes down to programmers wanting to be lazy in many cases as much as wanting a library that can save them reinventing the wheel. And of course the quality of libraries, as you note, vary greatly. The bottom line is that someone should first learn the basic programming language. Second, if they must, then go search out a library that you understand and works for you (this will include wading through a lot of crap too unfortunately). The third is be prepared to have to draw on the skills developed in the first step to achieve all of your goals. In short, there will never be a magic pill for the developer / programmer who is a little too lazy to get their skillset up to par that just builds an application. And I personally don't want one. When something breaks or doesn't work and it will - then the quality programmer comes into their own. So yes frameworks can be useful just as a washing line is useful. But its only useful for what its meant to be used for. Logically if I want to mow the lawn I need another feature in my backyard (my partner)... :) I think a lot of this comes down to programmers wanting to be lazy in many cases as much as wanting a library that can save them reinventing the wheel. And of course the quality of libraries, as you note, vary greatly.

The bottom line is that someone should first learn the basic programming language. Second, if they must, then go search out a library that you understand and works for you (this will include wading through a lot of crap too unfortunately). The third is be prepared to have to draw on the skills developed in the first step to achieve all of your goals.

In short, there will never be a magic pill for the developer / programmer who is a little too lazy to get their skillset up to par that just builds an application. And I personally don’t want one. When something breaks or doesn’t work and it will – then the quality programmer comes into their own.

So yes frameworks can be useful just as a washing line is useful. But its only useful for what its meant to be used for. Logically if I want to mow the lawn I need another feature in my backyard (my partner)… :)

]]> By: Robert Nyman http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123573 Robert Nyman Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:14:40 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123573 Olle, Yes, you're absolutely right! How come I didn't see that? Or... Your thoughts are maybe narrow-minded and you don't see the whole picture? Anyway, you're free to express your opinion here, but if you want your comments to stay, enter a proper e-mail address. Olle,

Yes, you’re absolutely right! How come I didn’t see that? Or… Your thoughts are maybe narrow-minded and you don’t see the whole picture?

Anyway, you’re free to express your opinion here, but if you want your comments to stay, enter a proper e-mail address.

]]> By: Peter Griffin http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123549 Peter Griffin Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:28:18 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123549 What the hell does "rant" mean? What the hell does “rant” mean?

]]> By: Olle http://robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123537 Olle Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:40:10 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/10/19/frameworks-are-the-new-black/#comment-123537 You are only upset because your position as javascript expert is not needed anymore. And face it, if someone wants to launch the next big thing, why should they care to reinvent the wheel instead of focus on their main goal? Also one thing perhaps the most important, even if you build your own js framework it doesnt matter, it wont solve all problems you'll ever have in the same way the big opensource frameworks wont aswell. You are only upset because your position as javascript expert is not needed anymore. And face it, if someone wants to launch the next big thing, why should they care to reinvent the wheel instead of focus on their main goal? Also one thing perhaps the most important, even if you build your own js framework it doesnt matter, it wont solve all problems you’ll ever have in the same way the big opensource frameworks wont aswell.

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